This week we are joined by former Air Force Thunderbird pilot Rusty Keen!
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00:01
Behind the Prop Intro
Clear prop 773 Cherokee number two following twin traffic three mile final one trolley bravo makesford in Runway two five going four mile.
00:10
Nick Alan
This is behind the prop with United Flight Systems owner and licensed pilot Bobby Doss and his co host, major airline captain and designated pilot examiner Wally Mulhern. Now let's go behind the prop.
00:26
Bobby Doss
What's up, Wally?
00:27
Wally Mulhern
Hey, Bobby, how are you?
00:29
Bobby Doss
I am fantastic as always today. It's been a while. We haven't had a guest in a while, but we have a guest coming back. This is another unique encounter that Wally had with quite honestly, a pilot that's much cooler than Wally and myself. Wally got the chance to fly with a past Thunderbird. Thunderbird number two. Welcome to the show, Mr. Rusty Keen.
00:53
Wally Mulhern
Hey, it's glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
00:56
Bobby Doss
Yeah. And so we've been warming up a little bit. We've been talking about a few things. Rusty's appreciative of being on the show. We're appreciative of Rusty taking time to be on the show, but. And a little bit of research. Rusty's a retired Air Force participant. Thanks for giving us some of your time to the country there. Retired from the Air Force and now works for a major airlines and flies a triple seven. So probably goes just as fast, but weighs a little bit more and has a few more passengers. Thanks for coming to the show, Rusty. I don't know, Is this your first podcast ever?
01:32
Wally Mulhern
This is my first podcast, absolutely.
01:35
Bobby Doss
I'm sure you did plenty of PR back in the early 2000s when you were with the Thunderbirds, and we'll spend some time there. But if you don't mind, give us your kind of background, history, how you got into aviation to give the listeners a little bit of a baseline on who you are and how you got to cockpit.
01:52
Wally Mulhern
Sure, I will. Bobby, I appreciate it again to you and Wally for this opportunity, for just bringing me on. It's a real privilege and pleasure to be able to talk about something I love to do, which is flying. Had the privilege to get up flying with Wally recently and. And he was asking about some of my experiences and where I was based and. And we talked about air shows and one thing led to another and here I am. But my passion for aviation started when I was nine years old. I went to an air show at Ellington Field in Houston with my grandfather who was a Bombardier in the B17 back in World War II. And the Thunderbirds were there at the air show and I looked up and told my grandfather I Said, I want to do that one day.
02:38
Wally Mulhern
And he looked at me and said, well, you're going to have to work hard and you can make it happen. So unfortunately, I had a struggle between that point and the time I actually joined the Air Force, which is. Grew up in a small town, Fayetteville, Texas, which is about halfway between Austin and Houston. Pretty much a ranching farming community. Had 12 students in my graduating class in 1987. And the school didn't really prepare students to go off to college and be prepared for a rigorous university. So I knew I wanted a career in aviation, just didn't know how to get there. So I started at Austin Community College because I had to pay my own way through school, so that was the most economical route.
03:24
Wally Mulhern
I was fixing fence and hauling hay and doing all kinds of crazy stuff just to build up for, to go to school. And then eventually landed a job in San Marcos as a refueler at a local airport and started washing planes and sort of traded some of my time for working to fly aircraft and then eventually got my private pilot license when I was in college. And that's kind of where my passion for aviation started and thought, you know, I want to do something, I'm not sure what. I knew I wanted to serve my country just didn't.
03:55
Wally Mulhern
I wasn't sure if that was going to work out based on my background and my grades etc, but so continued on, went to San Marcos, Southwest Texas State, got a bachelor's degree and ended up getting most of my ratings to be an airline pilot in the early 90s. It was just, it was a tough time for the airline industry as far as the hiring goes. And so that wasn't working out for me. So I stuck around, went to grad school and then knocked on the door of the ROTC recruiter and begged for them to take me as a part of their program in rotc. And they did, and within two years I was a commissioned officer and got a pilot slot and went off to pilot training.
04:39
Wally Mulhern
Worked hard, got an F16 out of pilot training and then had a great career in the Air Force. 25 years later I retired and five years ago and started flying for a major airline. And so here I am today, some awesome experiences along the way as a fighter pilot and one which I obviously know about, which was spent a couple years with the Air Force Thunderbirds. So that was probably the highlight of my Air Force career. And I'd love to talk to you about it and answer any questions you have. And I'm just super passionate about my time in the military and aviation.
05:15
Bobby Doss
Fantastic. Before we started, I told you, like these kids that I know nowadays that are writing congressmen at 13 years old trying to do anything they can to get that flight spot. They're probably jealous of your opportunity and maybe the path you got to it. But I do think the message, it's never going to change. You got to work hard to accomplish the things that are hard. And anybody listening, you should be able to look up and see whatever plane it is in the sky and know that you have a shot to get there. It might not be an easy one, but you got a shot to get there. So you and Wally end up flying together. And Wally's been a hotbed for guests as all of his first officers have interesting backgrounds and careers.
05:58
Bobby Doss
And we will spend time talking about the time of the Thunderbirds. It's interesting that you are kind of a local guy. I still fly A182 occasionally over to San Marcos and hit the outlet malls with my family and do some school shopping and then fly home. So not too far disconnected in the grand scheme of things. Although when I say Wally and I have 27,000 flight hours, people don't ask me how many I have, but I hope they assume I have about half of those when I really only have about 500. You have more. You had more F16 time before you went to the Thunderbirds than I have all time flying. But so if, you know, tell us a little bit about that process. I think every one of us have probably dreamed of being a Thunderbird. I showed you on my background.
06:46
Bobby Doss
I have the picture of those same Thunderbirds at Ellington Field at my first air show on my background on my Mac. Tell us a little bit about the process of getting into the Thunderbirds and what's that application look like once you already are an F16 pilot?
07:00
Wally Mulhern
Yeah. So the minimum qualification to be a Thunderbird pilot is 1000 fighter hours. So any fighter aircraft the. The Air Force has. So that typically takes about four to five years to accumulate that many hours because you're flying one hour at a time. You know, a typical week of flying in a fighter squadron, you're probably flying four to five times, maybe once a day at one hour time. So it takes a while to accumulate that many hours. So it takes about six to seven years. And so once you accumulate the amount of hours that you need, now starts the process of the application, which is a little bit more intensive, which you got to put. You got to write a letter as to why you want to be a part of this team.
07:49
Wally Mulhern
You have to also get five letters of recommendation from your leadership people that you worked for in the past or that you can currently work for in the air Force, and then also your flight records. Everything that started with you from the time you entered the air force up until the time you apply. So it's important that you know, if you ever want to apply for a team like this, that you. You do well in pilot training, you know, and they take a look at your records overall to see how you progressed. At that point, you submit your application. It happens once a year, and typically, there's probably 100 to 120 qualified fighter pilots that apply for two or three positions every year. Once you submit that application, you send it off, and you just kind of hope for the best.
08:36
Wally Mulhern
Well, my first year, I submitted it. Waited, waited, nothing. So they gave me basically rejection letter about three months later and said, we're interested, but you just need a little bit more time in the airplane. And so I get it. So it was. It's all about persistence, and, you know, how bad you really want this. So I waited again. Next year, I applied. I actually got called out to be a semifinalist, and how that works is they bring out 12 pilots for an interview out of however many apply. And again, it's typically 100 to 150 pilots apply. So you come out, you got to Vegas, which is where the air force Thunderbirds headquarters is, where they're based, and you get to hang out with the current team, and they get to know you and ask you questions, And I'll be honest, Bobby, it's. It's.
09:24
Wally Mulhern
At that point, it's a lot less about your qualifications. It's more about, do I like this guy or gal? Can I hang out with them? And I'm just being honest.
09:35
Bobby Doss
Y' all probably do a lot of traveling.
09:37
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, you're with us. You're with this group, a very small, intimate group, for two years. You work together, you play together, you fly very close formations together. She had to have a lot of trust and confidence. But at the same time, you know, outside of flying, can I hang out with this first? I like them. Are they good for the team? Are they going to be safe? Are they going to be a good representative for the Air Force? Because we are a recruiting tool. But in the end, you know, is this a good match for our team, the individual that they hire? So the second year, I went out for the semifinals, then left, went back to my base in Georgia at the Time. And. And now the. The list comes out for the finals, which they take it from 12 down to 6.
10:22
Wally Mulhern
Well, I didn't make the finals my second year, so a little bit crushed. Went home, told my wife, I said, well, this wasn't meant to be this year, for whatever reason, and decided, I'm going to apply one more time. So waited another year, Persistence pays off. Went and made the semifinals, made it out to the finals, where you actually get to fly in the backseat of an airplane, and they get to see a little bit of your skill set. And this was the year that they decided to bring me on. And I think there was a number of reasons, but one in particular as to why I got hired that year. And in my opinion, it was. They were looking for something a little bit different.
11:02
Wally Mulhern
And if you take a look at the dynamics and the makeup of Thunderbirds in the past, before I got hired, they were typically your. Valedictorian, high school, captain of the football team, went to the Air Force Academy, did very well. Maybe your dad or granddad was a fighter pilot. And so it was a, you know, it was a. It was a. It was an honor to be a part of the team. But it was also, they were looking for somebody maybe with a little bit different background and makeup. And, you know, I was raised in a small town. I kind of had some struggles to get to where I was financially in college.
11:37
Wally Mulhern
It took me a little bit longer than others, but, you know, for me to go out and tell my story to young men and women in high school and talk about our experiences, I think that can relate to them. So I honestly think that was one of the reasons I got hired. But either way, I was hired to be number two left wing on the Air Force Thunderbird team from 2004 to 2006. And I can tell you more stories or experiences along the way, but it was just an honor and a privilege to be a part of that organization. I was super thrilled. So packed up the family and the kids moved off to Vegas, and it was just an exciting two years. It went by so fast.
12:14
Wally Mulhern
But there were so many people I met along the way and hopefully made an impact on some young lives as far as the career field in aviation or anything in the military or aviation. So it's. I really look back at that time of my life and just so blessed and honored to be a part of that, part of the Air Force Thunderbirds.
12:33
Bobby Doss
That's super exciting. And I think everybody thinks those that have accomplished something like you joining the Thunderbirds, that it Just happens like. And it, your story shows that it doesn't just happen. Right? You've got to work hard. And I would say the little time I've spent with you today on a zoom meeting for this podcast, you seem relatable and down to earth. And whether that's exactly why they picked you because your story was there. It sure does seem like a lot more kids aren't the captain of the football team and a lot more kids aren't the valedictorian. So kudos for the Air Force for having a little strategy on expanding their market there a little bit, for sure. So I.
13:15
Bobby Doss
I do know one part of your history, and it has to do with something I think we all would agree isn't quite right yet in aviation, and that's the balance of men versus women. I think the Blue Angels may have hired their first female pilot in the last couple of years. When was the Thunderbirds first female and did you have a chance to fly with them?
13:36
Wally Mulhern
Well, it just so happened that the year that my last year on the team is when we hired our very first female Thunderbird pilot in 2006. Her name was Nicole Malachowski. And it was a great time in the Air Force. And it was about that time, see started 1998, the Air Force allowed females to fly fighter jets. So it took a little bit of time, as I mentioned earlier, six to seven years. And so in 2004, we had our first applicant female Thunderbird pilot. And then in 2005, our second and third, and then eventually hired our first female Thunderbird pilot who became Thunderbird number three. I had a distinct privilege of being her instructor pilot since I was on the left side of the formation, in the diamond formation, she was on the right side.
14:24
Wally Mulhern
And so it was a great time in the Air Force. I will tell you. There were, there were some struggles in terms of the balance between. The training season and the public affairs relations events. Could you imagine being the first female on the Air Force Thunderbirds? And everybody's to talk to you. We had the Today Show. We had Oprah Winfrey. We had a lot of major networks that wanted to ask her what it was like to be a Thunderbird and to keep her focused, that was my job, to keep her focused mentally and physically on the flying. Our training season starts in November and goes all the way through the end of February.
15:05
Wally Mulhern
And so that was a, it was a challenge in a lot of ways, but an exciting challenge nonetheless, that we had our first female Thunderbird pilot when I was on the team and I had a small part in helping make that happen, at least getting her trained up and ready to go for the next season.
15:21
Bobby Doss
That's a cool piece of history I'm sure to be a part of. And we had the Goodyear Blimp cat chief pilot on our show one time. And he said more of my job is the PR stuff than it is about flying the Goodyear Blimp. And you put that in perspective. Most of what they do is all about pr. So I can only imagine what it would be like to be the first female on the Thunderbirds. And all those requests for the team to come and for her to come and very distracting and could get distracting. So you say November to February. I'm a training guy owning a flight school. So the new team members come on board. Sounds like I'm picking up. Not the whole team refreshes every time. That would be kind of crazy. So is it half every other year?
16:07
Bobby Doss
Is that how it works?
16:08
Wally Mulhern
That's exactly how it works. We have six pilots that fly in the demonstration. We also have two additional pilots and we, number one through six for the formation. And the number seven is our operations officer. He or she is the second in command is also the SAFety officer that when we have shows and practices, they get to talk to us from the ground and observe our formation. And if there's any safety issues, they're the ones that kind of make the call to either stop the air show or continue. And then we also have number eight, which is the narrator. So those two individuals, seven and eight, also fly fighters, but they don't participate in the air show.
16:51
Wally Mulhern
And they also have the privilege of getting to fly a lot of celebrities and local media as well to kind of get them up and showcase what we do. But to answer your question, we. We rotate pilots every other year so that I call it the odds one year and evens the next. And it keeps that good continuity as we bring new folks on board. So for example, 1, 3 and 5 one year and then 2, 4 and 6 the next year. So it's a two year assignment for the officers and it's a three to four assignment for all the enlisted. So our team is comprised of 10 officers and about 135 enlisted personnel and also three civilians. From the 10 officers I mentioned, numbers one through eight, we also have number nine, who's a maintenance officer or a flight doctor.
17:41
Wally Mulhern
Number 10 is an executive officer. Number 11 is a maintenance officer. And number 12 is a public affairs officer. All 10 pilot or all 10 officers travel to every show and have. They all have unique and specific job sets. The one question I get, I used to get a lot of was do you have any backup pilots? What if somebody gets sick? And the answer is no. If somebody, if one of the pilots gets sick, we just fly with the remaining pilots we have. And so for example, it was in 2005, our number three pilot was sick and were doing an air show at the Air Force Academy. And so went out with five pilots. And so it was kind of an odd looking formation. As you can picture the diamond formation. Picture the diamond. And number three is missing.
18:30
Wally Mulhern
It looks kind of like a Dorito chip. I know. So it's a.
18:33
Bobby Doss
So I took a bite out of.
18:35
Wally Mulhern
That's right. We do what we have to do to kind of get through. And there's always challenges with that and with also weather and things like that. We can talk about the actual show stuff later if you like. But, but we do every other year and it's two years is perfect. And like I said, the enlisted get to stay three to four years. And these men and women are some of the best we have in the military. It's just a privilege and honor to be a part of working with such a talented group of men and women.
19:05
Bobby Doss
So you Talked about number 7 and 8. I've probably watched more of them on YouTube and Facebook feed than I have the whole formation because it's funny to watch the newscaster who thinks they're a fighter pilot for the day fall asleep in about the second turn because they've never pulled ags and they just kind of fall asleep for a few seconds and then they come back to life again and act like nothing happened. So I've watched a lot of those videos. They're funny for sure.
19:36
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, absolutely. We, you know, as during training season I've had the opportunity to fly celebrities and local news cast folks as well. And, and one of the individuals that had the privilege of flying was a world famous top fuel drag racer by the name of Doug Herbert. Well, I didn't know this when Doug showed up and I'm going to fly a two seater version of our F16 that he's going to jump in the back seat. He had over 2,500 hours of jet time. He owns his own airplane. And so it was really cool to take somebody like that up who has some experience and says we took off and we raised the gear. We're 50ft above the ground at 550 knots. I said, you're ready for some GS, Doug? He said, bring it. So we eased into about nine GS and he wanted more.
20:24
Wally Mulhern
And I said, doug, I can't give you any more. Nine G's is the max. So you have both sides of the spectrum where you have those that, you know, after 4 or 5G want to throw up and stop, you know, stop flying. And you've got people like Doug Herbert, who's a world famous drag racer who wants more. So it's just neat to be able to go out and showcase what this aircraft's capabilities are and get to meet some really cool people along the way.
20:49
Bobby Doss
Well, I suspect most of them are nervous or scared, but I also suspect most of the guys that fly think they can take a lot more than they can take too, because it's a different dynamic than what their body's used to, I'm sure.
21:02
Wally Mulhern
No, I was going to say the fun part of that is we have a camera that will actually look at the individual in the back. So as this is going on, those that get sick, for some reason, they don't want the video to take home. Yeah, I don't know why. But those that don't actually love it because it's something they get to take with them and they get to, you know, look at going upside down and doing rolls and loops and, you know, going Mach 1.2. And so it's just, it's a neat experience they can share with the public about, you know, what the Air Force, our capabilities are in a fighter aircraft.
21:35
Bobby Doss
Well, before we get started, I showed you my picture on the background. And you can probably talk a lot more about the maneuver or the formation than I can. But it's the, I call it the belly shot of the Thunderbirds Show Center. When I went to my first air show here in Houston, and it's a beautiful, I mean, the resolution is amazing, but it was just caught on an iPhone. And I've all, I've never been to an air show until that one, of course, and I was in awe. The Thunderbirds were amazing. And I've watched a lot of, I'll call it documentaries or docu series is on the, on the air shows since then. And those planes look like they're in a perfect diamond.
22:11
Bobby Doss
And, and one of the things I asked was, I think I've read and seen that they're not in a perfect diamond it's all about perspective from the ground and show center. Pick a couple maneuvers that you. That maybe we don't all understand or know what really goes into it and tell us how the Thunderbirds pull off those tight formations and maybe are they really as close as they seem and, or is it an optical illusion? Give us some, give us some inside scoop.
22:38
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll start with the most basic, which I'm most familiar with since I was part of the diamond formation as the number two left wingman. So when we're flying a show and we're going, let's say from show right to show center to show left, kind of picture yourself, you know, in the middle of the show line and you watch this from the right hand side, it looks like a perfect diamond formation. And as the formation progresses from right to center and starts center to left, that it looks like again a perfect diamond formation. What's actually happened in the cockpit with our aircraft is we're moving, like you said, like an optical illusion. So the slot pilot, number four is kind of moving forward and up from show right to center to left.
23:22
Wally Mulhern
And number two and three are also repositioning as we continue to make that perfect appearance of a diamond formation from left or from right to left. So there's, and that's all part of the training, you know, and we start out in training season at, we're at three to four feet apart and by the time we get ready to go to a show season in March, we're flying 18 inches wingtip to wingtip at speeds in excess of 550 knots and pulling upwards to 6 to 7 GS in the diamond formation. And so it's a, it's a mental and physical task to maintain that perfect formation position. And one of the ways that we can do that, because all we're doing is wingman number two, three and four is we're flying off of lead.
24:08
Wally Mulhern
And lead plays a very critical role in telling us over the radio what he's doing next and what maneuver he's going to do next and how many GS he's pulling and which direction he's going to turn. So that way we know exactly where we are in relationship to the crowd line and we know exactly what's happening next because we're flying so close, you know, with such fast speeds that we, it almost allows us to maintain some predictability with what's happening with the show. And so that's what's happening with the diamond formation, the solo pilots, number five and six, you know, they're out there making sure that they're. They're crossing at the exact time over show center. And so everything is based on timing and precision of getting to a certain location at a certain time.
24:56
Wally Mulhern
So you get that appearance, that illusion that if you've seen the show and two aircraft are approaching each other and they're on what we call kind of the collision course, and they. They rotate, you know, wingtip to wingtip, they're missing each other probably by 50ft. Well, the crowd, it looks like they're, you know, they're going to run into each other, but obviously they have lateral offset. But their objective is to. To make sure they get to that perfectly, that spot at the right time, because plus or minus a second or two. So it's all about precision flying.
25:26
Bobby Doss
Yeah, those things look so cool. And I think one of the maneuvers or one of the things that they do is they fly with one upside down looking in the cockpit of the other one. I don't know if that's always the same two pilots, but I assume it is, because I guess you don't all practice that. But that's. That's one where. I think everyone's seen that Thunderbird picture where it looks like the tip of the. The rudder or the vertical stabilizer is within inches. Literally not 18, 3 or 4 inches. I'm assuming they're offset. But what's the inside scoop on that maneuver?
26:01
Wally Mulhern
Well, before I tell you that, there's one thing that people always ask us, whether it's in the autograph line or, you know, before show number five, his number on his show suit is upside down. His number on his aircraft is. Is upside down. So when you see it right side up, he's inverted. And he spends 90% of the history of the show inverted. So that 5 is right set up. And so it's just one of those. Yeah, so what a. What a cool position to fly, you know, when you spend 90% of the time upside down. But yes, they're. They're. There's a lot of safety margins built in, obviously, to the formations that they fly. And it looks like they're right on top of each other. But if you. If you look at it from a different angle, they're.
26:44
Wally Mulhern
They're offset by 25 to 50ft. And it takes a lot of practice, a lot of precision to. To make that look so precise. But those guys get to have a lot of fun, for sure.
26:55
Speaker 4
Didn't Maverick and Goose do that in the original Top Gun to the. The Russian fighter.
27:01
Wally Mulhern
That's right. That's where it started. You're right.
27:04
Bobby Doss
Tapping on the glass, maybe. Hey, let me in.
27:07
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
27:10
Bobby Doss
So maybe a little bit of the show stuff that. That isn't the flying. I think the. The presentation in the beginning is. Is something that is obviously ingrained in the history of the Thunderbirds and the. Getting the planes ready for departure and the crew that's supporting it and all that effort. Is there. Is there history there other than it's the. The getting ready to go, or is it. Is that. That's something that's ingrained in the Thunderbirds?
27:37
Wally Mulhern
You know, we've. You know, we have six pilots who fly the show, but it takes so many men and women to make it happen on the ground. And for me, one of the coolest shows as a participant watching, now that I've been away from the team and I get to go back and watch shows, I love watching the ground show. These young men and women, they're enlisted airmen that are maintainers, maintaining the aircraft. They actually put on a really cool ground show to music as. As we march out, as the pilots march out and get in the airplane and as they launch us. And so they have to practice just as much as we do in the air. They'll practice on the ground, and they take their job very serious.
28:22
Wally Mulhern
There has not been a show that the Air Force Thunderbirds have missed based on a big maintenance malfunction. That is these airmen. If there's something wrong with one of the aircraft, they've been able to fix it. We've not missed a show since 1953 based on any kind of mechanical failure. Now, we've had things go wrong in the area which will go back and pick up spare aircraft to finish the show. But these men have went a mile of ground. They take their job as serious and more serious than the pilots do, because guess what? This is where the show line is, and this is what people see most of. And so it's. It's really cool to see them take their job as serious as they do.
29:03
Wally Mulhern
And they're out there representing and showcasing teamwork and precision just as much as the pilots are in the air.
29:10
Bobby Doss
Yeah, it's a cool sight to see. Back to what I said earlier as a. As a flight school owner and doing the training, what. What is the. The prep work like? You talk about the distances that you fly, but if you're training for four months, you guys and girls have to be Putting in a lot of practice. I'm assuming it's not all flying. You're in a room, you probably have some models. You're talking about perspective, like how much, how many man hours or time do you spend preparing? I assume it's your full time job at that point.
29:41
Wally Mulhern
It is. And we fly. Training season, like I mentioned earlier, is from November to end of February. And we'll fly two to three times a day, Monday through Friday and sometimes on Saturdays in Las Vegas and those. It's a 12 hour day. And there have been plenty of days where 12 hours is kind of our maximum day for crew rest. They have to kick us out the door just to get home, get some rest, to come back the next day. Because for every hour that you spend up in the air, you're spending three hours on the ground, whether it be deep, whether it be briefing. As Wally well knows, chair flying is a big deal.
30:18
Wally Mulhern
And so we'll sit as pilots and chair fly, almost close your eyes and visualize everything that's going to happen, choreograph when it's going to happen, the timing of the events and then how it's going to end. And then we also talk about contingencies. That is, if the weather gets bad, let's say it's a clear sky day. You start with what we call a high show. You have clouds roll in. Well, guess what? We can't fly through clouds during the show. So we end up transitioning from what we call a high show to a low show based on weather or even to a flat show if we have at least 1505 to do a flat show. Well, as weather moves through, we have to keep the crowd excited. We can't stop, put the air show on pause because we're burning gas.
31:09
Wally Mulhern
We have to keep moving. So we transition from one show to the next, hopefully without missing a beat. And a lot of that preparation happens on the ground. Chair flying, briefing, talking about contingencies. And then most importantly, our probably biggest takeaway is the debrief, where we go back after we fly, we watch the tapes, every practice is filmed. We'll go back into a debriefing room and we'll watch the tapes and we'll pause every few seconds and talk about the maneuvers, what we did right, what we did wrong, how we can do better. And so that's kind of big picture. But where it starts, when you start at the training season, when you have no experience flying formations like this, we start off really wide, really high. And then we start bringing them in closer and lower to the ground. And so we'll go through.
32:01
Wally Mulhern
We might spend a full hour just practicing the bomb burst and then rejoined the bomb burst or just a couple of different passes. So you've seen the show recently in Ellington and you're probably familiar with the bombers where the diamond formation splits off and then we all cross and rejoin back together. So we'll hone that until we get it perfected. And I say perfected. There's never a perfect show, but we try to make it perfect. And if you ever meet somebody pilot tells you they had the perfect flight of the perfect story, tell them to call me, because I haven't to this day. We're always learning.
32:37
Bobby Doss
I can understand that for sure the, that kind of a maneuver though when you. And I'm more curious just now, but like, are you flying that at 10,000ft the first few times? Because surely you're not doing that 500ft off the ground.
32:51
Wally Mulhern
No, you're absolutely right. We're flying it, you know, between 6 and 10,000ft. We're flying a little bit wider than normal until you start getting more comfortable and bringing it in. So the cool thing about the transition as you come on board the team is that we, the pilot that's leaving the team, let's say the guy or gal that did us two years and they're getting ready to leave, they're the instructor for the first month. And so we put them in the backseat of a two seat F16 and we put the new guy or gal in the front seat. So you get them a couple of reps, repetitions with somebody in the backseat, talking to them about here's the position that you're looking for, here's what the book says, you know, where you need to be.
33:31
Wally Mulhern
And as you get a little more confident, you bring it in closer and lower. And then after about a month of that, we go to a single seat aircraft and the instructor is a part of the formation at that point. And so, for example, when you get to January, February, you know, as I was the instructor for Nicole Malachowski number three, I'm her instructor from another airplane. And so as you're kind of watching the formation take place in the air, you kind of have to know your position, also know what's coming up next. But as an instructor, you're kind of multitasking, watching across the formation, making sure that individual is doing what they need to be doing. And. But again, most of the Learning takes place in the debrief as we watch the tapes, which is where it all happens.
34:18
Bobby Doss
So you. You mentioned high show and low show. I was familiar with that. This past year, the flight school bought the nicest tickets I could get. And I took my daughter one day and my wife the next day, and we had some really good show center seats. And the first day was about 3,000 overcast. So I think we had the low show day one, and the next day was clear skies and we had the high show, which was cool for me as the chaperone. I had to go both days, unfortunately, but I got to see both. It was really nice. You said 15:5. Those new pilots listening to our podcast might not understand what that means, but I'm assuming that means 1500ft AGL and 5 miles visibility, y' all do a show in that.
35:02
Wally Mulhern
Wow. Minimum requirement to do a flat show, which means you're not doing any over the top maneuvers, any rolls or loops. It's all just kind of flat passes and a tight formation. But absolutely, we've done. That's what we need as a minimum.
35:17
Bobby Doss
Wow. That would be a cool. Cool. I mean, the weather would probably suck, but that would be a cool show. Probably not a very bumpy day for you guys in the planes, but what a cool show that would be. Up, up close and personal, no question.
35:32
Wally Mulhern
Yeah. Yeah, it's. That's fun.
35:35
Bobby Doss
What's the season look like? So now we're February. How many shows, how many cities? It's got to be a lot. And I'm not looking for exacts, Rusty. I'm just kind of. To put in perspective what a Thunderbird pilot does over the year. Give us an idea what that the whole season looks like.
35:54
Wally Mulhern
Yeah. Once the season kicks early, March through end of October, we do about 75 to 80 shows all over the United States, a variety of locations that changes up pretty much every year. Sometimes we repeat the same locations, and then there are also. We also do a Europe show and an Asia show. The year that in 2005, I did a South and Central America show. We went down to El Salvador and Acapulco and. And Guatemala. And that was. That was pretty cool. But that's. That. That's about a week and a half of the whole show season. But typically how it works is the team will fly out so that the narrator is the first one on site to any show location.
36:41
Wally Mulhern
And I would argue that the narrator is probably the hardest working individual on the team because they have to leave a day early, which is On a typical, on a Wednesday, they go to the show location and they make sure that everything is ready to go, that everybody is expecting us, that we have all the arrangements that we need to get the logistics, the aircraft on the ground to get everything unpacked, everything from the hotels to the rental cars, et cetera. And then talk to the air boss, that's the person in charge of the air show, and just answer any questions they might have. And so that individual will take a two seater F16, he'll take his crew chief in the backseat to the show location on a Wednesday.
37:23
Wally Mulhern
And on Thursday morning, we'll launch seven F16s, number one through seven, to a show location. So let's say the show's in New York and we're taking off out of Las Vegas. Well, 99% of the time we'll coordinate with tanker support. So air refuelers. That will give us gas along the way. So therefore we don't have to stop at an airport to refuel. And so we'll take off. In that case, we're going to New York. We'll meet up with an air tanker, air refueling KC135 or a KC10. Along the way we'll get our gas. He'll drag us. He'll take us about maybe 100 to 200 miles from our show location and then top us off. And the reason he tops us off is that we want to show up at our show location with a lot of fuel.
38:14
Wally Mulhern
And the reason that we want a lot of fuel is we're going to do some aerial surveillance of all the markers on the ground. Because it's very important that the pilots have markers on the ground so that we can look at our. Where the show location, the show center is. And primarily for timing of different maneuvers. So you want to pass over certain markers at a certain time so that when you get your formation over, so center your formation is in perfect position. And so we'll get to a show location. The six airplanes will fly over at a certain time. We'll split off, we'll take a look at our arrow markers on the ground. We'll join back up, then we'll pitch out and land. And then we'll join up with the generator and then kind of go from there. That's a Thursday.
39:05
Wally Mulhern
On a Friday is what we call our practice day. But I call it the day that we do an air show for the Make a Wish foundation kids. And it's probably one of the most heartfelt days that we have for, you know, for the week, it's a great day to practice at a new location. But at the end of the practice we land. We get to spend an hour to two hours with these young children Make a Wish foundation and just see the smile on their face and get to talk to them, you know, and they've, they all just are super excited to be there and watch airplanes go by and see smoke come out of airplanes and red, white and blue and it's just awesome.
39:49
Wally Mulhern
That's one of the reasons that, you know, I wanted to become a thunderbolt was to talk to young men and women about aviation and see them smile. And that day is just so much fun. So that's Friday. We'll go to typically after that some PR events and then we'll do a normal show on a Saturday and a normal show on a Sunday. And then we'll typically fly back to Las Vegas on a, on Monday morning. And then Tuesday is a practice day and Wednesday is our day off. I say day off, we typically go on and we coordinate for tanker support for the following Thursday.
40:26
Wally Mulhern
So it's a continuous flow of events and it's, I tell you that the energy is so high that you really don't feel like you're working, but at the same time you're busy all the time, if that makes sense. It's a whole lot of fun. I did leave out one of my favorite things is on a Friday before the practice show, the pilots get to go out to different locations, whether it be school visits, hospital visits, boy Scouts, girl Scouts, et cetera. But I love going to a high school, an auditorium filled with thousands of students to talk about why we're at that location that weekend to talk about the air show that's in their hometown, talk about career opportunities in the military and also civilian aviation. So I get to bring my pilots, bring their crew chiefs along.
41:15
Wally Mulhern
We get up on stage and we have their attention for an hour. And as I mentioned earlier, that was one of those opportunities. I got to talk to him about how I got to this point. And you could just tell, you know, some kids, you can read that those non verbals, you know, they fall asleep, are they bored? Are they excited? But there are a lot of students that can really relate of man, I can do this. I can be a pilot or I can be a maintainer, I can be part of the military or fly aviation for a commercial airliner. They're, there's opportunities. It's just hard work and if somebody tells you no, you just have to keep the persistence pushing forward. And if you want it bad enough, you're going to make it happen.
41:56
Wally Mulhern
So that's kind of the message for this younger generation. And I just, I miss that. I loved it then, I love it now. But that was the main reason that I think I wanted to be a Thunderbird, was to get out there and talk about how cool our job is and hopefully get others excited and passionate about it. But that was our Friday morning.
42:17
Bobby Doss
Well, my wife's high school counselor, if you're ever in a layover in Houston, I'm sure I can coordinate you an auditorium full of kids that would be interested in hearing your stories for sure.
42:27
Speaker 4
I think Rusty, I think Rusty may have a place up on Lake Conroe. I'll bet he's in Houston a lot.
42:33
Wally Mulhern
All right. Yes, I go up there probably. Probably four or five days a month. In fact, we're. After we finish this, my wife and I are packing up and going to Lake Conroe. So any chance I can get to go out there and talk to if you know young men and women about aviation, I would love that.
42:53
Bobby Doss
I'll shoot you an email. There's a Air Force ROTC guy at the high school my wife doesn't work at, and I'm very connected. We'll figure out some opportunities if you really want to do it. We, we can get a lot of kids excited about aviation and all the things that are possible, for sure.
43:08
Wally Mulhern
Well, what I'll bring some videos of actual air shows that I was in back in 2005 and 6, and then bring a helmet, a flight suit, some, you know, G suit. They can put some stuff on as opposed to sitting there. They can interact and that's the kind of stuff I love and I think they love too, so. Absolutely. Count me in.
43:27
Speaker 4
Well, I was just going to comment. Rusty, you talked about the Make a Wish kids. You know, we are. The airline that we both work for, does a lot of work with Make a Wish. And I fly to Hawaii a lot. And I would say a good 30% of our flights to Hawaii, we have Make a Wish families on board. We had two of them yesterday, two five year olds, a little boy and a little girl. And you know, I can't tell you the feeling of emotion that comes over you when we invite that family up to the flight deck before or after the flight and, you know, just to maybe give that family a couple minutes of maybe not thinking about a sickness or something like that. But it's. It's. Man, it's just a. A heartwarming feeling to be able to do that.
44:22
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, you're spot on, Wally. I love the fact that you. You do that and you stay engaged, and I'm sure you give them the little wings that just watch the light up. That's just.
44:32
Speaker 4
Yeah. A little girl came up the other. Yes. Well, it was just yesterday, and. And I called her by name, and the. The father said, how'd you know her name? And I said, well, we know the name of all our very important passengers. And the little girl just. She just lit up that I knew her name and that. Just very heartwarming to be able to maybe for a couple minutes, maybe take a little bit of a burden off their life.
45:02
Wally Mulhern
I love it. That's fantastic.
45:04
Bobby Doss
Well, everybody listening to the show is not going to have the same perspective that I have because I've been on Zoom for the last hour and a half with Rusty, and I'm just. I'm kind of drooling over the model collection that's in his. In his. I'm gonna assume that's his home office. The Thunderbird model, I'm sure it's not plastic. I'm sure it's metal. It looks amazing. So I wish I had some of those in my fly school. I. I gotta say, you've been lucky, Rusty. I can tell you. Give back. And hopefully a little bit of what we do at behind the Prop Podcast gives back to aviation as well. Thank you so much for being on the show today and giving some of your time and.
45:43
Bobby Doss
And sharing your story with all of our listeners and hope to see you and get to meet you face to face sometime soon. As always, everybody fly safely and stay behind the prop while Rusty's staying in front of the sound barrier, I guess, till next week.
46:00
Nick Alan
Thanks for checking out the behind the Prop podcast. Be sure to click subscribe and check us out online@brave.theprop.com behind the prop is recorded in Houston, Texas. Creator and host is Bobby Doss. Co host is Wally Mulhern. The show is for entertainment purposes only and is not meant to replace actual flight instruction. Thanks for listening and remember, fly safe.